REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER

MAHER: All right, time to meet our panel. [applause]

All right. He is the senior editor of The New Republic , whose blog is AndrewSullivan.com. Andrew Sullivan! [applause] Boy, you didn't get that much more than Ann Coulter got.

He's an activist, actor and Oscar-winning writer who next year will direct his first feature film. Ben Affleck! Everybody knows Ben Affleck. [applause] [cheers]

And he is a major literary figure whose ninth novel is Shalimar the Clown. Please welcome Salman Rushdie is over here. [applause] [cheers] Thank you. Yeah, that was a little dirty trick I played on Ann Coulter. I got the last word in. But she'll have to deal with it.

Okay, Miers. Let's get to this nomination. The first thing I don't understand about this is I reviewed some of the cases where other Supreme Court justices have recused themselves because they were too close to a case. Stephen Bryer recuses himself often because his brother sits on the U.S. District Court. Clarence Thomas recused himself because of a decision involving a school his son went to. John Paul Stevens agonized whether to recuse himself because of a case where the law school's dean was his former clerk. How come this woman who has been George Bush's “bitch” –[laughter]—who calls him the most brilliant man she ever met – this is the one thing I know she's ever judged—[laughter]—why is this woman not recusing herself from the entire job? How could she ever be objective about a case brought before the Supreme Court? Very often, the White House comes before the Supreme Court. I don't get it how anyone thinks this woman is going to be objective about anything George Bush feels importantly about.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: That's the point, Bill. I mean, she's described by most people in the White House as someone who literally “worships” George Bush. That's the term used. So you have a president who has a lot of difficult issues coming up, especially with regard to things like writing – signing memos about torturing detainees. And you don't want someone sitting on the Supreme Court who is going to be objective. You need to pick someone who is going to back you every inch of the way. And he's picked two people who will.

MAHER: So what do the right-wingers not get about it? Why aren't they backing her? Is it a draw play? Are they pretending to be against her so that--? 

BEN AFFLECK: [overlapping] So the Democrats will fight, all of a sudden?

MAHER: Yes.

AFFLECK: “The Republicans seem to hate her; we should love her!”

MAHER: Exactly.

AFFLECK: The double-switch.

MAHER: I think it's a big feint.

SALMAN RUSHDIE: But we don't know – but we don't know what there is to love. What we do know is that she's been in Bush's absolute inner circle for a decade or more. So what extra do we need to know about her?

SULLIVAN: Bill, the conservative establishment since Roe v. Wade, have spent years building a bench of judges, of potential judges, of the most impeccable intellectual pedigree. They've been studying. They've been working. They've been creating the Federalist Society.

MAHER: Yes.

SULLIVAN: They have 25 brilliant judges waiting. And he stiffed them all. This was his Mel Brooks moment. “It's good to be the king.” [laughter] [applause] This was his—

MAHER: It's so arrogant, isn't it, that he would—

SULLIVAN: I have to say it was nice to see Ann Coulter finally get it from George Bush. It was finally him telling her to go fuck herself. He doesn't care. He's the president. He had one accountability moment. It was November last year. She backed him. As far as I'm concerned, she can stick with it.

MAHER: It's amazing that in the middle of a scandal that he's going through about being a cronyist—

AFFLECK: Yeah.

MAHER: --that he would appoint a crony. [laughter]

AFFLECK: A crony.

MAHER: That he would say, “Hey, you know what? You don't know her credentials. She doesn't have any. Trust me, I'm Bush. When did I ever fuck up?” [laughter]

AFFLECK: I think it shows that – for one thing, I think it gives away – he just lacks subtlety. You know what I mean? The Bush-Gore decision—

MAHER: Yes.

AFFLECK: --demonstrated that the Supreme Court, more or less, when it comes right down to it, beneath the sort of veneer of judicial impartiality, will more or less back positions of the people who appointed them, except for the – you know, some think Kennedy is a traitor, and Souter sometimes.

MAHER: Right.

AFFLECK: But for the most part. And so Bush sort of knew that. And the deal is, we put in, you know, our guy or our woman. He just doesn't understand that you're supposed to finesse it a little bit. You know, you're not supposed to make your brother – you know what I mean – your brother-in-law you can put on the Supreme Court. [laughter] You know—

MAHER: And that is arrogance.

RUSHDIE: This – this “trust me” thing. It's very, very interesting that both Bush and Blair essentially play the “trust me” card all the time. And in neither country does anybody trust them. [laughter] [applause]

MAHER: Right. Even the right-wingers—

SULLIVAN: Bill—

MAHER: --who are people of faith, are saying to Bush, “We don't have faith.”

RUSHDIE: They have no faith. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: I will tell you, I trusted him. I endorsed him in 2000.

MAHER: Yes, you did.

SULLIVAN: I trusted him that there were stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I trusted him that he was a conservative president that would restrain spending. He's increased spending more than anybody since FDR. I trusted him when he went into Iraq and said, “We've got to get this right,” and he's send enough troops to actually get it right. And he didn't. I'm never going to trust this guy again. [applause] [cheers]

And any – any conservative who has principals, who isn't just sold out to the Republican establishment, would have said last November, “We're voting for Kerry because we can trust this guy,” and they all went along. And I'm sorry. I have no pity for them anymore.

MAHER: And I have to tell you, what offends me the most about this nomination is that there is no diversity of religion in this country. George Bush does have a diverse Cabinet when it comes to race. They've done a pretty good job: Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, so forth. But, you know, I don't think race makes someone as diverse nowadays as how you think about religion. And there's no secular voice. There's no voice of me in this Cabinet. Everyone who gets appointed has to be not just Christ-y, but “Super-Christ-y,” [laughter] “Double-Dog-Christ-y,” “Twice-Born Christ-y.” [laughter] And you know what? That – people of faith – and when I hear “people of faith,” I think, well, those are people who suspend rational judgment for nonsensical bullshit that they believe. Where is the – where is the diversity of the people who think like myself and perhaps you. [applause]

RUSHDIE: And me, yeah.

AFFLECK: I think that's oversimplifying it and probably a little bit insulting.

SULLIVAN: Thank you, Ben.

AFFLECK: I mean, it's – you know, people of faith aren't stupid by dint of their being of faith. I mean, I just disagree. I think that's stupid, in fact, to suggest that. I think that, you know, ultimately, you have—

MAHER: I think there's a mental block.

AFFLECK: Well, there may be on some ends of the extreme of whatever religious spectrum you want to look at. But there's certainly a gamut. And just saying, well, if somebody is religious, whether they're Jewish and go to temple or Orthodox Jew or Christian that goes to church once a week or four times a week or believes that every word in the Bible is literal, or like the president thinks – “well, it's not all literal but I believe in it” – doesn't inherently make them stupid.

MAHER: Really? If you believe the words of the Bible literally; if you believe the world is 5,000 years old, that's not stupid? [laughter]

AFFLECK: I think most religious people, like, don't think that Jonah lived in the belly of a whale for 200 years. But the ones who get the attention--

MAHER: Oh, oh, in America they do. [laughter]

AFFLECK: No, I don't – I think you're wrong.

MAHER: No, no, there are statistics. Like I just read this, like, 45% of the people believe the Bible literally.

AFFLECK: Well, that's because you ask somebody in a survey, “Do you believe in the Bible?” And they go, “Well, I got taken to church or to the temple or to mosque, if it's about the Koran, or whatever it is, and this is what I'm taught to believe in and this is what I'm taught is good.” And they say, “Do you think this book is good?” And they go, “Yeah, I believe in it.”

MAHER: As a child. As a child.

SULLIVAN: Bill, I'm a person of faith, and I rather resent being called stupid.

MAHER: I'm not calling you stupid. I'm saying—

SULLIVAN: Yes, you did. [laughter]

MAHER: No, I'm saying it's a mental block. Because I know intelligent—[laughter]

SULLIVAN: I'm saying you have a mental block when it comes to people of faith.

MAHER: No, I had a mental block when I was a child when they taught me this nonsense. And when I got to be an adult, I got over it. [applause]

RUSHDIE: Bill, let me just – let me just join the insulting team.

MAHER: [laughs] Thank you.

RUSHDIE: Just for once. Just for once.

MAHER: Funny. I'm the one going to get shot. [laughter]

RUSHDIE: There was a couple of years ago, just before the Iraq nonsense began, I was invited to Washington, and I got to speak to a group of senators of both parties. And the thing that was most obviously different between the Democrats and the Republicans was that the Republicans exclusively used religious language. Exclusively.

MAHER: Right.

RUSHDIE: You know, and the Democrats did not. And that really scared me. There was one of the senators who I guess I shouldn't name, who asked me why it was that Osama bin Laden said that America was a godless country. He was really offended by that. He said, “We're not godless. We're very godly.” And I said, “Well, I guess Mr. Bin Laden doesn't think so.” But that was – that was the nature—

MAHER: If only he knew us better.

RUSHDIE: If only—

MAHER: He probably would like us better. [laughter]

RUSHDIE: Lot in common.

MAHER: This week – let me just expand on why I feel this way. This week, it just happened that God pulled off a hat trick on the same day – well, he did – on the same day, there were three major holidays: the Feast of St. Francis of Assisi for the Christians, Ramadan started, and Roshashona all fell on the same day. Now, if all three groups believe so fervently – you know where I'm going with this—

RUSHDIE: [laughs] Yeah, go on.

MAHER: --isn't it obvious somebody is wrong? [laughter] And if somebody is wrong, aren't they all wrong? [laughter]

RUSHDIE: But what I want to know is – I want to know is, where is – where is the holiday for the atheists? When is our day off? [applause]

MAHER: Where is the representation?

AFFLECK: That's – that's President's Day. You get a deal on a car. Come on down. We'll sell you a mattress. You'll love it here. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Bill, they actually have drug tests to be in the Cabinet for President Bush. So that's one reason some people aren't represented there. [he laughs] [scattered laughter] But…people of faith are not talking about what is known; they're talking about what is not known and what we cannot know. 

MAHER: Right.

SULLIVAN: And genuine people of faith are not going to make these asinine statements like Franklin Graham or these nut cases that you point out. They're going to be humble in front of God. They're going to recognize that there are some things that science cannot tell you: the meaning of the universe, the point of our lives, what morality is, what happens to us after death, how we should treat our fellow human beings; those questions, I think, in true people of faith who don't seek to impose on other people, are just trying to find a way to live their own lives in a good way. And by demonizing all people of faith—[applause]

MAHER: [overlapping] But they are—

SULLIVAN: [overlapping]—what you do, is you play into the hands of these fundamentalists. The United States is based upon a separation of church and state, and that's why religion is so strong in this country.

MAHER: But they—

SULLIVAN: The Republican Party has betrayed that tradition, and you're right to call them on it. But don't – don't conflate that with the greatness of many religions and the greatness of many people of faith. [applause]

MAHER: I'm sorry, but they are – excuse me – they are your fellow travelers. The people who believe in miracles and – and, you know, impregnating people from a god and flying up to heaven – you either—

SULLIVAN: And the people – and the people who are visiting prisoners in jail, and the people who are feeding the hungry, and the people who are caring for abandoned children, and the people that do good every day of the week, are also my fellow travelers.

MAHER: Why can't they do that--?

SULLIVAN: And they're your fellow travelers.

MAHER: Why can't – why--?

AFFLECK: Let me just – let me just – because you can't just frame it in such a reductive way – go, well, you believe that, you know, a man – you know, the god got this woman pregnant; well, if these books say different things, aren't they all wrong, or don't they contradict one another – there's a sort of way of looking at it that says, well, maybe they're all right. They all sort of stem from the same monotheistic, Judeo-Christian tradition, where they share certain core beliefs, as you suggest.

And you know, I read [indicating Sullivan] his blog all the time; he's a very smart guy. I agree with him about almost nothing. [laughter] But in this particular issue, I think he's right. I think he makes a good point, which is that there is a core set of beliefs that religion, you know, encapsulates, that represents some of the best of us. To love they neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged. You know, all these things, to just give them charity – those are good things. It doesn't mean that those are the people who go around bashing everyone else's heads in. That's a tiny minority who get a lot of attention. [delayed, scattered applause]

SULLIVAN: And, Bill, I respect—

RUSHDIE: Well, I've been – I've been worrying about God a little bit lately. You know, it seems as if he's been lashing out, you know, destroying cities, annihilating places. [laughter] And it seems like he's been in a bad mood, you know. [laughter] [applause] And I think – I think it has to do with the quality of lovers he's been getting. [laughter]

MAHER: [laughs] That's right. It's not like Leda and the Swan anymore, right.

RUSHDIE: You know, if you look at the people who love God now, you know, if I was God, I'd need to destroy something. [laughter] [applause]

MAHER: I mean, here's why it's dangerous. I'm talking about the three religions, had their holiday on the same day. They also, as you know, in Jerusalem, all contend for the exact same piece of property. The Jews call it the “Temple Mount.” It's where their temple was. The Arabs call it the Al-Aksa Mosque – is that the one – and the Christians find it to be a holy place, too. Well, it's not a coincidence that the same exact piece of real estate is fought over. It's because the Jews had it; the Christians conquered them and they said, “Well, we've already got a venue here, why build a new one; it's now a church.” That's why it's on the same place. And then the Moslems took over and they said, “We've already got a big building.” It's the same shit in different cans, is what I'm saying. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: Let me say this, that—

MAHER: [overlapping] And people die.

SULLIVAN: [overlapping]—that the people that seriously take their faith seriously, I think, are also respectful of other people of other faiths, and also respectful of people with no faith at all.

RUSHDIE: That's not true. That's not true. [applause]

SULLIVAN: I'm not saying that everybody is. I'm saying that people who really, for example, listen to the words of Jesus in the Gospels, are not going to try and oppress other people. And that the message of Jesus—[audience reacts]—the message of Jesus, if you listen to it, is of compassion and tolerance of other people.

MAHER: I love Jesus. I just don't like the Christians who don't believe in what he says. [applause]

SULLIVAN: Well, then that's a fair point.

AFFLECK: See, now you're making a good point, which is, you know, if you—

SULLIVAN: Good point.

AFFLECK: --look at the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Koran, the practices, none of this is explicitly preaching violence or oppression. It's – there are idiots and assholes in all walks of life. I mean, they're everywhere. There's one or two here I see—[laughter] [voices overlap]

RUSHDIE: But, you know, they do seem to be in charge.

SULLIVAN: This audience, Ben, is absolutely famous for it, let me tell you.

RUSHDIE: I'm just saying, they do seem to be in charge. [laughter]

MAHER: Exactly. [applause]

SULLIVAN: And many of them are in charge—

MAHER: And how many people will die? How many people have already died because they believed this about this one little place in Jerusalem? That issue is—

RUSHDIE: I have the solution to the Jerusalem thing. My wife was just making this movie in Morocco and she found there the left-over set of Ridley Scott's “Kingdom of Heaven,” which was Jerusalem, right? So I thought that's the solution: build it in kit form. [laughter] Give it to – everybody should have Jerusalem. [laughter]

AFFLECK: A little take-out Jerusalem?

RUSHDIE: Yes, build it everywhere. [applause] Build it anywhere you like. Build it in Iowa.

MAHER: All right, I want to go on to something that I thought was very amusing this week. The president, who said about Harriet Miers that she is “the greatest woman I've ever met because she never changes.” Okay. [laughter] Mr. Don't-Go-Changing did a complete 180 on conservation. He has been against conservation from the beginning. Suddenly the Bush administration, as always – they always do the right thing after the thing that they want to do is completely blocked – but they're, of course, the let's-not-and-say-we-did administration. So instead of real policies on conservation, they came up with this mascot. Look at this. [holds up card with mascot logo] This is the Energy Hog. Piggy the Energy Hog. And he says things like, you know, “Carpool,” and “wear a sweater.”

AFFLECK: That can't be true.

MAHER: That's real.

SULLIVAN: Did you – did you make that up? [laughter]

MAHER: I'm not kidding. This is what the Bush administration gave us this week.

AFFLECK: Jesus Christ.

MAHER: That is – I'm making up “Piggy,” but he—

AFFLECK: George Bush's brother-in-law runs that department. [laughter]

MAHER: So—

SULLIVAN: There's one test of whether they're serious about conservation. That's if they add a dollar to the gas tax.

MAHER: Right.

AFFLECK: Of course.

SULLIVAN: That's the only thing that will do it. And they won't touch it.

MAHER: No, no.

SULLIVAN: They won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.

MAHER: What they do is come up with more mascots. [laughter] [holds up more cards and reads them] Here's “Freddy, the FEMA Catfish.” [laughter] Reminding black folks in the flood plain, “Keep those bus tickets handy.” [laughter] The Department of Agriculture has come up with the “MC Mad Cow,” reminding you that, “What you don't know won't kill you, so stop asking about the hotdogs.” [laughter]

Here's – oh, the border patrol has come up with Pepe, the Chihuahua. [laughter] He says, “Ask your cleaning lady to stop telling your relatives how great America is.” [laughter] [applause]

Here's the Social Security Seal, Sammie. [laughter] He says, “Dog food doesn't taste bad with A-1 Sauce.” [laughter]

And finally, my favorite, from the DEA, “Dora, the DEA Donkey” says, “Help stamp out cocaine smuggling. Try crystal meth. It's made in the USA.” [laughter] [applause]

And, speaking of crystal meth, you heard about that woman, Ashley Smith, who—

RUSHDIE: Oh, she saved somebody for Jesus by giving him crystal meth.

MAHER: Right.

AFFLECK: That'll do it!

MAHER: We heard – see, again, the religious people said she talked him out of it. This was the thug in Atlanta who took over a courthouse, shot people, took her hostage. And she read him The Purpose Driven Life. That's what they told us. Well, then it turns out, on second—

AFFLECK: You mean they got high on crystal meth right there?

MAHER: On further review, it was Jesus and crystal meth. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: With a twenty dollar bill.

RUSHDIE: That's very sad.

SULLIVAN: But you know—

AFFLECK: The Lord does go better with crystal meth. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: God works in – God works in very mysterious ways, Bill. [laughter]

MAHER: Yeah. They always get – that one always works.

RUSHDIE: That old-fashioned philosopher Karl Marx used to say that religion was the opiate of the masses. Now it's the crystal meth of the masses. [laughter] [applause]

MAHER: All right. I want to go to our satellite. She has written a book about her service to our country in Iraq called Love My Rifle More Than You: Young and Female in the Army. Please welcome Kayla Williams. [applause] Kayla, how are you today?

KAYLA WILLIAMS [via satellite]: I'm great. How are you?

MAHER: So, now you were a translator in our army in Iraq, correct?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I spoke Arabic.

MAHER: Okay. I imagine that's very valuable nowadays.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I certainly have job security. [laughter]

MAHER: And in your book, you say that you saw things that you really need to forget. But if you could hold off on that for just about a minute, what is it that you saw that you need to forget?

WILLIAMS: Watching a man bleed to death is certainly a memory that I am not fond of having. It intrudes on my mind at inappropriate times, and it's something that will stay with me forever.

MAHER: Are you talking about someone that we were – are you talking about someone that we were torturing?

WILLIAMS: No, but I did see an incident where an interrogation did cross a line as well. That was a separate occasion.

MAHER: Do you think – I mean, these stories keep coming out from Iraq, from Afghanistan, from Guantanamo Bay, about our soldiers torturing people who are in their custody. Do you think we are helping the cause against terrorism, or do you think this is creating more terrorists?

WILLIAMS: You know, when I saw the incident that I saw, after it was over, I approached the non-commissioned officer in charge, and I said, “You know, anyone that you have in there that is innocent is a terrorist by the time they walk out.” And he said he knew.

MAHER: Wow. Who do you – who do you put the blame on? I mean, we've been hard on the upper-ups here. That's our job, to question authority and so forth. And lord knows they deserve a lot of the blame. They set up an atmosphere where torture was – where it was possible. But it seems like an awful lot of our soldiers just enjoy doing it.

WILLIAMS: I think it's really unfortunate that you have people put in incredibly high-stress environments where they are led to believe that if they do things that aren't right, that they will be able to get information that could save the lives of others. And unfortunately, the methods aren't always effective, not to mention the fact that they're horribly immoral.

MAHER: But you know—

WILLIAMS: I was an enlisted soldier, and I absolutely believe that people should be accountable for their own actions and be personally responsible. But I also think that it's a tragedy that it's lower-enlisted soldiers who are paying the price, and that the officers in charge and the people at the highest levels who are making policy decisions have not been held accountable. [applause]

MAHER: I agree. I agree. Maybe I'm over-sentimentalizing this because my parents met in World War II; my mother was an Army nurse; my father was in General Patton's army. Am I wrong? I just can't see soldiers of that era doing what the soldiers of this era are doing to prisoners. Again, maybe I'm just looking at it through rose-colored glasses.

WILLIAMS: I think you may be. There's a fascinating study you can look up on the Internet. You can Google it. Stanford Prison Experiment, 1971. And it shows that, unfortunately, there is a tendency in more of us than we like to believe to slip over that line and do things that we may not want to believe we're capable of. It's just a little more likely than we're comfortable with.

MAHER: How comfortable is it to be a woman in the Army nowadays? Is it easier to be a woman or a gay soldier?

WILLIAMS: Why can't you be both? [laughter] [applause]

MAHER: Hey, hello!

AFFLECK: That's what I'm talking about. Yeah!

WILLIAMS: No, I met my husband in Iraq, so I'm not speaking about—

MAHER: “Go Kayly, go Kayly”—oh, sorry, that's terribly inappropriate. [laughter]

WILLIAMS: No, I met my husband in Iraq, so I—

MAHER: [overlapping] But I know the men are pretty hard on the women, aren't they? I mean, there's a lot of sexism that still goes on, right?

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. There is a lot of sexism in the Army. But, you know, people act as if this is a big shock. There's sexism in all of America. I mean, we really have to remember that it still goes on. Women still don't make – have wage parity with men. It's a problem across the board. And absolutely, women have a tough time of it in the Army. But I found it to be an incredibly empowering experience. I learned how strong I really am. And I will be able to take that with me forever. I know that it can be really tough on a lot of gay soldiers, too, but I've also known soldiers in the Army who were gay and seemed to be thriving and doing fine in their careers. So sometimes it can be a very individual questions. And it's – it's not necessarily fair to oversimplify the questions.

MAHER: Okay, Kayla, thank you very much for joining us. [applause] Kayla Williams from Washington, D.C.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. [applause]

MAHER: Yeah, 90-9 was the vote in the Senate the other day for a bill that would make America outline what we consider to be torture. It's the first bill that—

SULLIVAN: No, what the bill says is simply what the Army Field Manual has always said.

MAHER: Right.

SULLIVAN: Which is, this is illegal, immoral and wrong. And the responsibility for this goes to the President of the United States who signed a memo allowing this to happen, to the people in the Justice Department, Albert Gonzales, who signed the memo allowing this to happen. And we owe this young man, Captain Ian Fishback, who stood up—

MAHER: Right.

SULLIVAN: --and witnessed people being – having their arms and legs broken, and went to his commanders and said, “This is against the Geneva Conventions.” And they said – they said, “Don't ruin your career.” He went up to the Secretary of the Army. They said, “Don't bother about it.” He took 17 months through the system. He went to Bill Frist and he was told to go away. It took Senator McCain to finally listen to this man. This has been going on now for two-and-a-half years. We have 36 corpses of people who have been tortured to death the government has itself acknowledged. We have hundreds and hundreds of cases across the theater of war. This didn't happen in World War II because we had a president in World War II with morality. [applause] And how—

MAHER: It reminds of that Michael J. Fox/Sean Penn movie – remember – where he—

AFFLECK: “Casualties of War.”

MAHER: “Casualties of War.” He goes and he reports the atrocities, and he comes back and he says, “Don't worry, I told them. They don't care.”

SULLIVAN: But you know what, Bill? This president is threatening—

MAHER: [overlapping] He did it better but…

AFFLECK: [overlapping] I liked your performance.

SULLIVAN: [overlapping]—is threatening to veto this bill. He's never vetoed a bill.

AFFLECK: He acts as if it was 90-89—

SULLIVAN: This is the one he will try and veto, because they were trying to work the House now.

AFFLECK: You already had an override. I just read your thing on this whole thing.

SULLIVAN: Yes.

AFFLECK: On your blog, you said that it didn't look like they could get a veto because they didn't have the votes, because the vote was so overwhelming—

SULLIVAN: In the Senate.

AFFLECK: Right.

SULLIVAN: But in the Senate, Cheney is ferociously trying to stop – the United States live up to its historic honor. And I just don't understand why there isn't more of an outrage in this country about this.

RUSHDIE: Well, I do think she was right in her interview when she said that people are under incredible stress, and under incredible stress, people can slip over a line. And therefore it is the job of the officers in charge to stop them doing that, you know?

MAHER: Yeah. [applause]

RUSHDIE: That's what the officers are there to do. And suddenly, then to – then to say, okay, those are the people who did it; they are the rotten apples; we'll put them in jail and then the problem goes away, is just bullshit.

AFFLECK: I think it also goes back to a question of language. Like the administration has continued to use really extreme language in drawing – life playing on, for instance, this is a “war on terror,” “it could be a mushroom cloud,” “all of our lives are at stake”—

MAHER: Right. Yeah.

AFFLECK: --which makes it seem as though there's no – there can be no measured response to this; only the most extreme will do. And in fact, you know, there can and needs to be a measured response, which indicates that we are, in fact, not the same as people who attack civilians, who torture people. I mean, our whole argument against – being in Iraq, besides the weapons of mass destruction argument – was that, you know, Saddam Hussein tortures people, tortures his own civilians.

MAHER: Right.

AFFLECK: Attacks his own people!

MAHER: Gassed his own people.

AFFLECK: And, you know, civilians, many, many Iraqi civilians have died there. And, you know, here we are having tortured people. I think it has to do with this fact—

SULLIVAN: People also say these people are evil, and they are. Many of these terrorists are among the most disgusting people on earth. But you know what? This isn't about them. It's about us. It's about our values. It's about the west. We are fighting a war – and I believe in fighting this war as ferociously as possible – but the war we're fighting for, is exactly the war for western civilization against theocratic fascism. And to become like them is to lose the war.

RUSHDIE: That's exactly – do not – do not become your enemy. [applause] Do not become your enemy.

AFFLECK: And I also think – sorry, go ahead.

RUSHDIE: No, no. Go ahead.

AFFLECK: You're too polite for this show.

SULLIVAN: [overlapping] I don't want to – I don't want to win the war on these terms, Bill. I don't want to win the war on these terms. I don't want to become like them.

RUSHDIE: But the problem is here this question of who is to blame. You know, the rotten apple does not fall far from the rotten tree.

MAHER: Yes, exactly.

RUSHDIE: And if there are this many rotten apples, who is looking after the damn orchard. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: And Salman – Salman, you're right. I mean, under military law, commanders are actually legally responsible for what happens underneath. There is a very clear line of command. Even if they're unaware of it, they're still responsible. But this president—

MAHER: Okay. 

SULLIVAN: --who won't take responsibility for anything, has set the climate.

MAHER: All right, okay. Please, I will not have George Bush denigrated this way. [laughter] But he did – it seems very – maybe – I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I have to tell you, when the terror alerts happened this week at the same time that the Republican Party's poll numbers are tanking, I have to – just – it's the “Wizard of Oz”! It's like here are the bells, here are the whistles, here are the things going off; pay no attention to the man. [laughter]

AFFLECK: That's like patently obvious. I don't even think it's – look, Clinton did the same thing. Remember, there was some thing – they did a little “wag the dog” bomb strike at one place. But this is even more sort of egregious. I mean, here you are like losing ground, you're looking so out of touch, so obtuse about Katrina, that he, like – “I used to party down here, heh-heh” – he laughed. [laughter] People were like, “You used to party here?! We have no food!” [laughter]

RUSHDIE: And now he has a whole ministry for this. You know, he has what I've come to call the ministry of false alarms. [laughter]

MAHER: Very Orwellian, isn't it?

AFFLECK: It is.

RUSHDIE: Which is there – exactly – to create these. I mean, what is the difference, please explain to me, between yellow fear and orange fear? [laughter] You know, how do you respond differently when the fear level is blue or green?

AFFLECK: There's something – fighting the war on terror is, in fact, the way you do that is to create terror.

RUSHDIE: Is to scare people.

AFFLECK: Right, like, you get terrified because terror might come, which is – you know, obviously demonstrates that they go – hey, people think we're strong on defense and fighting the war on terror; they hate the cronyism, they hate the Supreme Court thing; they're hating our lack of attention to Katrina, so let's shift – and, like, I'm Karl Rove, I'm probably going to get indicted – let's go with the terrorism thing. I mean—

SULLIVAN: But did you notice something, Bill?

MAHER: What?

SULLIVAN: No one took any notice. New Yorkers went – went along—

AFFLECK: Well, no, they had subway searches and, you know—

SULLIVAN: You know what's happened? Is that this is – there will one day—

MAHER: Right.

SULLIVAN: --be a real attack. It happened in London not too long ago.

MAHER: Sure.

SULLIVAN: And what this president has done by devaluing this, and by devaluing his own credibility and his own seriousness, is make us more vulnerable to the real threats that are out there. And don't deny those threats are there. They really are.

RUSHDIE: They are.

SULLIVAN: [indicates Rushdie] This man is a hero for being the victim of those threats for many years.

MAHER: Absolutely. [applause]

RUSHDIE: However – however, that makes it even more important to distinguish, as you say, between the real and the fake.

SULLIVAN: Yes.

RUSHDIE: And you have the sense that this government has been reading The Da Vinci Code. [laughter] You know, so that everything – everything is a secret conspiracy. You know, under – just behind the desk there are invisible people belonging to cults. [laughter]

AFFLECK: Look at my man right here. Not only fights the Ayatollah, he does stand-up! [laughter] The guy's like – he eluded Iran, he's funny. You ought to take over for Bill. [laughter]

SULLIVAN: I think it may be worse. I think that the level of incompetence throughout the system, because they don't take government seriously—

RUSHDIE: They can't—

SULLIVAN: --is responsible for them not knowing what the hell is going on. We found out four years after 9/11 that if a disaster happens, they don't have a plan.

AFFLECK: Yeah.

SULLIVAN: That was the problem with Katrina, apart from the hideous humanitarian disaster. There is no excuse, four years after a terrorist attack, to have no plans to evacuate a major city.

MAHER: Also, you know what is so annoying— 

SULLIVAN: That's why he was elected! [applause]

MAHER: And what is so annoying to me this week in the news was 3,000 people were laid off in New Orleans because they couldn't pay them. Couldn't pay them? Haven't I heard every day how much money we're sending down there? $63 billion – 200 – Bush said whatever it takes, he doesn't care, blank check. So why can't – Tom DeLay, who can funnel money and launder it every which way around—[laughter]—he – when it's for their power, they can funnel and launder money, but they couldn't find a way to somehow get some of that $62 trillion [sic] into the hands of the people who are being laid off in New Orleans? [applause]

AFFLECK: That's what's really sad, especially with, like, these no-bid contracts—

MAHER: Aw…[indicating impatience with audience reaction]

AFFLECK: You know, what happens is that you're going to create all this – Republicans like him are going to go crazy because it's like too much spending, too much spending. And the truth is the people who are going to benefit are not the people – there's going to become this perception like all you had to do was be in New Orleans and get flooded out and you got rich from the government. It's not going to be true.

MAHER: Right.

AFFLECK: Who's going to get the money is all these contractors and middle men and all this graft in the middle.

MAHER: Already.

AFFLECK: These people who are washed out of their homes are still going to be wandering around with nowhere to go, no recourse, and there you go.

SULLIVAN: Do you know who was really on the ball with Katrina? Joe Allbaugh, the former head of FEMA.

MAHER: Sure, the former head.

SULLIVAN: Who was already before the hurricane hit, going around setting up contracts with his buddies for reconstruction efforts. [laughter] He's the guy who put Mike Brown in his job. So when they need to get the job done, they do. But they do it for themselves and not for the people of this country. [applause] 

MAHER: Okay, finally, we've just got about a minute. There's a new – [to Affleck] I know you're a gun guy – there's a new rule – a new law-- 

AFFLECK: That's right, fuck with me again, you'll find out. [laughter]

MAHER: --in – in Florida, called the “Stand Your Ground Law.” Now, they had the “Castle Law,” which means, of course, somebody comes into your castle, you can shoot away. They've basically taken the castle to the street. If you even think somebody is looking at your wrong, if you say to somebody, “I think that's my seat you're in” –[makes gun blast noises] [laughter]—to the point where the Sunshine State is even warning people, “ You know what, you tourists--?

RUSHDIE: Stay home.

MAHER: Not “stay home,” but “you might get shot if you're not from our state and you don't know what our laws are.” Isn't that a little extreme?

AFFLECK: [laughing] You just said like 15 wrong things in one sentence. It was like a litany – first of all, it's not the state that's giving out the warnings. It's the Brady handgun control people.

MAHER: Right.

AFFLECK: Who are – who are being alarmist. And they are opposed to the bill, which is legitimate. But then they're passing out, you know, these leaflets to people who get off the plane, that says, “Don't argue with Floridians or they'll shoot you.” [laughter] It's just like craziness. I mean, there was a handgun law. It said, like, you could have a handgun. And if you register it and you're law-abiding and you fill out a piece of paper, you can carry a handgun.

And then it turned out that in order to actually protect yourself in the event of being shot at, you had to first make your effort to flee, which resulted in, I guess, a couple of people getting – who had guns, who then tried to run away and got shot in the back. [laughter] And so then – it's true – and so then they said, okay, look, if someone is attacking you with, like, lethal force, and you're a legal, law-abiding citizen who is carrying a gun, you don't have to flee first; you can shoot them. And this caused total hysteria. Like it was going to be Wild West.

But in fact, the truth is – and I know it's funny and it gets a lot of play and you think it's cute – but the truth is, like, since the concealed weapon law came into effect, that violent crime has declined something like 80% in Florida. You know, you may not want to carry a gun, and you may be slightly disturbed by the idea that people are carrying guns, but, like, you know, criminals may well be carrying guns. And I don't want to shoot somebody. That's the last thing – well, that's the third last thing I want to do. [laughter] The second—

MAHER: You don't really carry a gun when you're—

AFFLECK: No, I don't have a gun. No, I don't carry a gun.

MAHER: Not in here, I know.

AFFLECK: No, I don't have a license to carry a gun.

MAHER: Oh, okay.

AFFLECK: I don't have a license to carry a gun. But I don't think that if you do have a license you should somehow have to, like, run away first. I think it's kind of parsing language, but I think it's more an example of how, like, liberals on the left and Democrats, among whom – I count myself among them – sometimes don't get it, and they fly off the handle and they get all tilted about stuff that doesn't matter and most people are opposed to. It sets the cause back, and it's small-minded.

MAHER: You're right. I was just trying to get you going. [applause]

AFFLECK: All right.

MAHER: All right, it's time for New Rules, ladies and gentlemen. [applause]

Ready? New Rule: The guy who wrote Why Do Men Have Nipples? must write another book called If You Care, Then You're Gay. [laughter]

New Rule: You can only kill the number-two man in Al Qaeda once. [laughter] According to the White House, we've killed the number-two man in Al Qaeda about nine times now. [laughter] He's not a terrorist. It turns out he's a zombie. [laughter] We're fighting them over in Transylvania so we don't have to fight them here. [laughter]

New Rule: TV has to stop trying to make white people more paranoid than they already are. [laughter] All the new fall dramas are based on the premise that the suburbs aren't filled with desperate housewives, they're filled with serial killers and aliens. Please, TV, stop freaking out the people in the ‘burbs. That's how George Bush got elected! [laughter] [applause] Folks, your neighbor isn't a serial killer; you're not going to be invaded by aliens; and your wife isn't fucking the gardener. [laughter] Well, two out of three ain't bad. [laughter] [applause]

New Rule: No more millionaires in space. With the deficit skyrocketing and poverty spreading, maybe now isn't the best time to use your Bush tax cut to take a $20 million rocket ride. [laughter] There's a more rewarding way to spend that kind of cash. Buy yourself a congressman. [laughter] [applause]

New Rule: Women have to meet me halfway. How do you expect me to masturbate to your fashion magazines if I never know when I might see Donatella Versace. [laughter] [applause] Not very dignified at all, Mr. Rushdie, no.

RUSHDIE: No. [laughter]

AFFLECK: Is this the free speech this man put his life on the line for?! Bill Maher jerking off?! [laughter]

RUSHDIE: No, no, no. This is not free speech. This is cheap speech. [laughter]

MAHER: And finally, New Rule: George Bush must meet some new people. [laughter] You know, when Americans see their president giving every job to the same old cronies, they use words like “loyal to a fault” and “stubborn” and “close-minded,” “lives in a bubble,” “sock-puppet,” [laughter] “asshole.” [laughter] “Worst president ever.” [laughter] But they're missing the point. The problem isn't his political philosophy – “kill people and animals and take their gas” [laughter] – the problem is he has to expand his circle of friends beyond his mom, Karen Hughes and the House of Saud. [laughter] Which is why before George Bush makes another political appointment, he has to join Friendster. [laughter] [applause]

This week, President Bush had to nominate a Supreme Court judge, and he picked the most qualified person within 30 feet of his office. [laughter] [applause] Her qualifications: well, she is a lawyer and former commissioner of the Texas State Lottery. And she's seen every episode of “Judging Amy.” [laughter] [applause] Abortion, affirmative action, separation of church and state. Yeah, let's ask the lady who peddled scratch tickets to liquor stores. [laughter]

Does he just go with the first person he sees? [laughter] I wouldn't be surprised if Laura was his sister. [laughter] [applause] [groans] Now, of course – I keep checking with him – of course, George Bush isn't the first politician to hand out graft gigs to his pals, but he doesn't seem to understand that that's what the bullshit jobs are for: ambassador to the Bahamas. [laughter] The Recycling Czar. [laughter] Head of the CIA. [laughter] [applause] But George Bush puts stooges where they can do real damage: Director of FEMA? That guy from the horsie show is available. [laughter] U.N. Ambassador? Dick Cheney knows a guy with a mustache and anger issues. [laughter] [applause] 

Supreme Court justice? Lady down the hall. [laughter] Labor Secretary? The guy who helped me move that hooker's body at Yale could probably do it. [laughter] [applause] You know – you know, Mr. President, when you got elected, we all figured you were no genius, but smart enough to hire qualified people. But it turns out you're just a dimwit who enjoys feeling superior. And the only way to accomplish that is to surround yourself with the likes of Mike Brown and Harriet Miers: Goober and Aunt Bea. [laughter] [applause] [cheers] Unspectacular souls who make you feel comfortable and unthreatened. Kind of like when Madonna used to hang out with Rosie O'Donnell. [laughter]

Well, I hate to burst your bubble. But real friends are the ones who tell you the truth. They're also the ones who work hard so as not to embarrass you. These people who work for you aren't behaving like friends. They're behaving far worse. They're behaving…like family. [laughter]

Yes, it's almost enough to make you miss the old pre-“honor and integrity” days.

Because at least when Clinton talked about tapping the woman down the hall, he was just having sex with her. [laughter] [applause] [cheers]

All right, that's our show. You were a great crowd. I want to thank my terrific panel: Salman Rushdie, Ben Affleck, Andrew Sullivan, Kayla Williams and Ann Coulter. Thank you, folks. Good night. Good job. [applause] [cheers]